cap pain multiplier from nerves

[Dimasw99]

About The Pull Request

Pain damage multilier now cannot exceed over 1.

This is a straight forward and simple fix to the current problem that exalts are basically unplayable when it comes to combat.
Do I think that more sensitive nerves should make you feel more pain? Maybe. The concept of nerve efficency is quite abstract and you could also argue that these nerves are "smarter" and know how to "filter" information. Being able to feel pain to an intelligent point next to still being able to feel the gentle touch of a feather.

Gameplay wise it also means that having an upgraded nerve organ will no longer be a downside which was quite counter intuitive. The extra NSA never really played that much of a benefit that would outweight the negatives.

[Rat-Time]

Slimes need this badly. For some reason I think aulvae pain is set even higher than exalt, so you can get shot by a laser and fall unconscious immediately.

[cdb-is-not-good]

Should cap maybe at 1.5 rather than one, probably

[cdb-is-not-good]

And yes, exalts had their nerve efficiency lowered to 105 from 150. Slimes have like 130 or 125. I can't remember

[Dimasw99]

Should cap maybe at 1.5 rather than one, probably

Not unless the overtuned pain damage is resolved and properly found out about. Else this change will just find zero to no effect.

But yeah. I heard universal complains from exalt and slime players both. Hell even call outs that exalts should never enter combat.

[cdb-is-not-good]

And yes, exalts had their nerve efficiency lowered to 105 from 150. Slimes have like 130 or 125. I can't remember.

Still tho, there's fixing the bug and then there's simply nuking the system- though maybe that's not a bad thing and we can just kill this baby in the crib

[Dimasw99]

And yes, exalts had their nerve efficiency lowered to 105 from 150. Slimes have like 130 or 125. I can't remember.

Still tho, there's fixing the bug and then there's simply nuking the system- though maybe that's not a bad thing and we can just kill this baby in the crib

Luckily this is something that can be changed easily in the future and once there are more reasonable benefits of having more nerve efficency. I would even argue that there shouldn't be a 1 to 1 translation of efficency to pain multiplier but rather a reasonable curve.

As of now it is really causing more issue than it is worth.

[Trilbyspaceclone]

Nerves do a lot more then just change pain/nsa
They directly improve musles and other organs in the lim.
The changes basically make it so slipping in lim improvements have zero downsides

[SkinkHunt]

Paincrit in 3 hits after some upgrades isn't exactly workable either. It basically encourages you to powergame toughness to be able to ignore it. Most of the time, in combat, paincrit kills you, 100% in a PVP situation. The current state of it makes doing anything risky with an exalt or aluvae basically suicide. Drawbacks are great, but basically a shortcut to death isn't exactly the greatest drawback. Pain already hinders skill checks, and makes you drop stuff. Those drawbacks are more balanced.

Sure we could get into playing "smart" and people should retreat instead of fighting to the death, but that is also difficult when you are slowed from damage (which doesn't take much more than a couple shots to the legs). And, generally, in the case of blackshields, people aren't given leeway to retreat.

We could see how it affects things and balance it from there.

[Trilbyspaceclone]

Having better nerves lets you be faster
when exsaults had 150 nerves they were around 250ish% faster (tho they have upgraded musles)
If you get pain crit in 3 mins, then have painkillers, people, do not do combat, ect tho it heavily depens on what hits you and all that in normal pve combat with 0 tgh and "basic" 15-30 armor a normal player should be fine
sure they are more likely to die but thats a race base choice on their part. They choice to be in combat

[Rat-Time]

Aulvae with combat focused stats and good armor still aren't viable for combat in the slightest. Being in paincrit/unconscious from 1 to 2 hits can't be the 'intended' way.

[Dimasw99]

Having better nerves lets you be faster when exsaults had 150 nerves they were around 250ish% faster (tho they have upgraded musles) If you get pain crit in 3 mins, then have painkillers, people, do not do combat, ect tho it heavily depens on what hits you and all that in normal pve combat with 0 tgh and "basic" 15-30 armor a normal player should be fine sure they are more likely to die but thats a race base choice on their part. They choice to be in combat

Better nerves only benefit the legs for speed and there are plenty of ways to gain extra speed to hit the tally cap without using the extra nerves. There is no justification for having better nerves in any other limb and not to mention the NSA cap increase is equally as useless. You can easily handle the most basic and easy to get combat chems without breaking your NSA cap, tramadol, hyperzine and synaptizine.

Having to use tramadol 24/7 is not really that great either, especially considering that your opponent can also use and carry tramadol just like you, reseting what ever advantage you had. In the end, in combat chems and medding is rare. Not to mention barely useful with how hyper lethal most guns are.

[Dimasw99]

150% is still really high. Is there any reasonable conclusion as to why it should be 50% and not 20, 30 or any other number?

[cdb-is-not-good]

50% is not really that high. Take a Martin for instance, 30ish halloss- becomes 45. Let's say you make it 20%, now it's only 34. Or something higher like taser electrodes, 80 becomes 120 with 50% but only 96 with 20%. 50% isnt the perfect number but it needs to be high enough to be meaningful, these nonsense 10, 15 20 30 percent bonuses and maluses suck and are basically irrelevant.

[cdb-is-not-good]

Also don't put DNM on stuff that's already test merged, trilby. We have changes requested for that

[Trilbyspaceclone]

Also don't put DNM on stuff that's already test merged, trilby. We have changes requested for that

Apparently adding "dissusion needed" wasnt enuff to stop you test merging it

[Dimasw99]

50% is not really that high. Take a Martin for instance, 30ish halloss- becomes 45. Let's say you make it 20%, now it's only 34. Or something higher like taser electrodes, 80 becomes 120 with 50% but only 96 with 20%. 50% isnt the perfect number but it needs to be high enough to be meaningful, these nonsense 10, 15 20 30 percent bonuses and maluses suck and are basically irrelevant.

Yet exalts and Aulvae both have nerve organs that either go only 5% or just 25% up per limb. They technically already count under the cap already of 50% that you are suggesting. Though people are still complaining that their species is impossible to use in any combat scenario.

[cdb-is-not-good]

Id say thats because in the current state the maths aren't working and people are taking significantly more pain than they should. If you don't have a convincing argument against at least trying the 1.5 and tweaking from there then were going to need that change made.

[benj8560]

In practice I find 1 is fine. More or less what happens is the pain multi from exalt is so damn high that the effectiveness of toughness is pretty much nonexistent. You'll never manage to get enough to make pain a near non-factor as you can with other races/normal organs. The benefits from being exalt are pretty much back to being nonexistent at 1.5 and it wont be changing much if anything.

[SkinkHunt]

In practice I find 1 is fine. More or less what happens is the pain multi from exalt is so damn high that the effectiveness of toughness is pretty much nonexistent. You'll never manage to get enough to make pain a near non-factor as you can with other races/normal organs. The benefits from being exalt are pretty much back to being nonexistent at 1.5 and it wont be changing much if anything.

This is my understanding of it too. Why are we so dead set on kneecapping Exalts? they are barely played at this rate, and the benefits aren't worth the half income if you can be knocked over by a stiff breeze.

[benj8560]

I realize my wording was a little weird when I'm trying to explain is that even at 150 toughness on tramadol pain is still considerably a problem with this PR for them. If even doing anything to reduce it.

In comparison to other races that are borderline painless at these stat numbers.

The benefits are also pretty much non-existent I would say that the human healing perk is far better than a little bit more speed (the only real meaningful perk of them). Speed is easy to get in round via simpler, cheaper and faster means. Even without external help in many cases.

Speed is also generally not all too impressive and is only really a big factor in PVP or at absolute extremes something that's not a primary focus of the server balance wise.

[benj8560]

Weirdly I also kind of like this solution over making the math work correctly. Significantly reducing the effectiveness of toughness is a interesting dynamic to me. Sure the pain will no longer be crippling but it's also something you can't ever really get away from without a very specific genetics gene

[cdb-is-not-good]

In practice I find 1 is fine. More or less what happens is the pain multi from exalt is so damn high that the effectiveness of toughness is pretty much nonexistent. You'll never manage to get enough to make pain a near non-factor as you can with other races/normal organs. The benefits from being exalt are pretty much back to being nonexistent at 1.5 and it wont be changing much if anything.

This is my understanding of it too. Why are we so dead set on kneecapping Exalts? they are barely played at this rate, and the benefits aren't worth the half income if you can be knocked over by a stiff breeze.

fixing bugs and weird shit is fine, utterly removing a major downside with no plan to substitute it is not. Dimas is objectively wrong that "a 50% extra pain mult is the exact same as currently". Secondarily, you are ALSO objectively wrong. Exalts are pretty darn common, especially for roles where the downsides are less relevant.

[cdb-is-not-good]

Changes have been requested, if they are not made we will very possibly either unmerge this or make the changes ourselves.

[Dimasw99]

Changes have been requested, if they are not made we will very possibly either unmerge this or make the changes ourselves.

wdym I already added them :v

[Dimasw99]

fixing bugs and weird shit is fine, utterly removing a major downside with no plan to substitute it is not. Dimas is objectively wrong that "a 50% extra pain mult is the exact same as currently". Secondarily, you are ALSO objectively wrong. Exalts are pretty darn common, especially for roles where the downsides are less relevant.

So you would rather have downsides with insignificant upsides :')
Mutual snides asside. Through the main culprit of it all might just be shock.dm alone. It has a lot of math that hooks into itself again that would cause any extra 25% multpliers suddenly being turned much higher.
For example if we take 100 damage (human example) and 125 damage (slime example) with get_dynamic_pain() being called it both gets multplied by 1.33. So the human recieves 133 and the slime 166, which is another extra 33 even though we have just recieved the extra of 25 before from get_limb_damage(). Combine that all that traumatic shock now also adds all of those together you now get some pretty nasty results.

So my big recommendation here is to cap the pain mult in shock.dm to 1. Makes the math simpler as well.

[cdb-is-not-good]

I mean I find exalts to be fine enough in their current state but if you want to buff them that's another conversation altogether. The whole reason were doing this thing here however is because unless the intent is to buff then some level of intent has to be maintained. We want bug/oversight/etc to be fixed separate from whole buffs.

[cdb-is-not-good]

But yes if you wanna cap painmult in shock and see if that does it go ahead

[Dimasw99]

But yes if you wanna cap painmult in shock and see if that does it go ahead

And done. Also is it normal that prosthetic limbs should feel pain? I just noticed that as well.

[cdb-is-not-good]

It's ....normal, but frankly I'm not a fan and I sure that it's intended. I would assume it's intended under eris's system because of how their FPBs and whatnot are basically just people with a bunch of prosthetics. I would be perfectly fine with making it so the prosthetic limbs don't take pain when injured

[TriFireBlade]

From my understanding, as someone who can't math for shit, slimes are regularly having to deal with way more pain than even exalts, and its not an insignificant amount. The upsides of having free hyperzine and stat chems doesn't seem all that much when you get tickled by some mobs and are removed from the combat. And while regrowing limbs is potent, this is something Soteria can do with a medicine. So you end up with a situation wherein your solution, as Trillby said is...don't do combat? On a server where most of the roles are going__ to end up in a scuffle with something at some point. Even the janitor will have to fight bugs sometimes. There is no "non-combat" role. But then, also, there is an entire ethnicity that only boosts combat stats. Why do they exist if, by gameplay, they can't even fight a simple bug? It just seems a tad convoluted.

[Trilbyspaceclone]

Working out a code fix to for lims stacking unrelated nerves to lims

[Dimasw99]

Working out a code fix to for lims stacking unrelated nerves to lims

Fix added